gezielte, lokale Fettverbrennung / Studie

Dieses Thema ist in unserem Studio immer noch Gegenstand zahlreicher Theorien und Gespräche ( wohl nicht nur dort ). Meiner Meinung nach funktioniert sie ohne "Mittelchen" ( inkl. supps ) nicht, andere denken darüber unterschiedlich, daher folgende Frage/Bitte:

Kann mir jemand eine halbwegs seriöse Studie oder andere Quelle nennen, aus der ich zu diesem Thema verwertbare Informationen bekomme und diese auch ggf. zitieren kann ? Möglichst noch in deutsch ??
Ich weiß, daß das hier schon oft diskutiert wurde, aber ich benötige eben keine Erfahrungsberichte/Meinungen, sondern Fakten, Fakten, Fakten !

Bitte um Antwort.

Gruß

Dieses Thema ist in unserem Studio immer noch Gegenstand zahlreicher Theorien und Gespräche ( wohl nicht nur dort ). Meiner Meinung nach funktioniert sie ohne "Mittelchen" ( inkl. supps ) nicht, andere denken darüber unterschiedlich, daher folgende Frage/Bitte:

Kann mir jemand eine halbwegs seriöse Studie oder andere Quelle nennen, aus der ich zu diesem Thema verwertbare Informationen bekomme und diese auch ggf. zitieren kann ? Möglichst noch in deutsch ??
Ich weiß, daß das hier schon oft diskutiert wurde, aber ich benötige eben keine Erfahrungsberichte/Meinungen, sondern Fakten, Fakten, Fakten !

Bitte um Antwort.

Gruß

lokal? ist mir nur Absaugen bekannt

lokal? ist mir nur Absaugen bekannt

@ anon

Darauf läuft es meiner Meinung nach auch hinaus.
Nur ist eine Meinung in Kundengesprächen nicht unbedingt überzeugend, deshalb suche ich nach einer Studie etc., die man den 50-Wiederholungen-und-damit-lokal-Fett-verbrennen-Spinnern mal vor den Latz knallen kann, ansonsten wissen die ja eh alles besser ( "der XY soll ja auch so trainieren, habe ich gehört..." ).
Wäre also nett, wenn sich noch jemand hier erbarmen und mir vielleicht eine Quelle / einen link nennen könnte.

Gruß

@ anon

Darauf läuft es meiner Meinung nach auch hinaus.
Nur ist eine Meinung in Kundengesprächen nicht unbedingt überzeugend, deshalb suche ich nach einer Studie etc., die man den 50-Wiederholungen-und-damit-lokal-Fett-verbrennen-Spinnern mal vor den Latz knallen kann, ansonsten wissen die ja eh alles besser ( "der XY soll ja auch so trainieren, habe ich gehört..." ).
Wäre also nett, wenn sich noch jemand hier erbarmen und mir vielleicht eine Quelle / einen link nennen könnte.

Gruß

Sorry, dass ganze hier ist sehr, sehr englisch:

Spot Training:
New Insights (September 1996 IRONMAN)
by Fred Koch
It's probably the most common question not only in bodybuilding but in all of fitness: Is it possible to spot train? Is it possible to burn localized fat with high-repetition weight training? No matter who you ask, you1ll get an unequivocal answer: no. There1s no such thing as spot training.

Bodybuilders and fitness enthusiasts alike take that no as gospelÐexcept, of course, that we're always secretly hoping it isn1t true. Why else would so many of us do hundreds of reps for the midsection when we don't train any other bodypart that way?

Maybe it's just instinctive. Bodybuilders have traditionally used this kind of high-rep training on their abdominals, despite the general belief that spot training doesn't work. When all the scientific evidence is finally in, however, it may turn out that the bodybuilders1 instincts were right.

The common belief about high reps and spot reduction is based on a study performed at the University of Massachusetts. The results of the study, titled "Effects of Situp Exercise Training on Adipose Cell Size and Adiposity," were published in a 1984 issue of Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport (Vol. 55., No. 3). At the time of the study the scientists used the latest data they had on localized fat reduction. I suggest that we1ve learned a few things since thenÐand that the premises and circumstances of the study may no longer apply.

The funny thing is, while people in the fitness industry all seem to know that there was some experiment that proved that spot reduction doesn1t work, almost no one is familiar with the research. During a recent seminar for personal trainers I conducted, I asked the crowd if anyone knew about this study or the criteria under which it was performed. To my amazement I discovered that not one of the highly trained individuals knew anything about it. Whether they knew it or not, however, their opinion on spot reducing was based on this study.

The experiment1s premise was to see if it was possible to burn fat in the stomach area by performing situps. The subjects used the standard bent-legs, elbow-to-knee situps we all did back in high school gym class. Thirteen male subjects took part in the 27-day experiment. On day 1 they did situps for 10 rounds of 10 seconds each, getting roughly seven reps per set, with 10 seconds1 rest between sets; and by the 27th day they worked up to 14 rounds of 30 seconds each, getting roughly 24 reps, with 10 seconds1 rest. Choice of Exercise

The problems with this experiment begin with the exercise used. I'm sure that almost everyone in the fitness industry today would agree that situps as they were performed in 1984 are not the exercise of choice for the abdominals. We1ve known for years that the situp performed on a flat floor is more of a hip flexor exercise and that the work done by the abs is mostly an isometric contraction. That in itself should be enough to set off buzzers about this study.

Then you have to consider how those situps were probably performed. Have you ever watched someone perform a high-rep set of situps? People never use perfect form on these. Instead, they use these jerky rock 1n1 roll-type movements that are not full contractions of the abdominals. Today we know that to work the abdominals effectively, the movement must be a perfect contraction of the abs through a full range of motion.

What's more, we also know that it takes a variety of resistance to work all the fibers in the target muscles to their maximum potential. You can't add resistance to situps, however; you1re limited to the weight of your body. Consequently, you may not be able to hit all the fibers in the target muscles with that movement. Definition of High Reps

This brings up several questions, not the least of which involves the energy systems used for the short bouts of exercise in the experiment. In 1984 the subjects worked up to 30 seconds of continuous energy. Today, we know that it takes at least two minutes of exercise for the fatty acids to kick in as fuel, with the ATP-PC cycle going to work for the first five to 10 seconds and glycolysis taking over at around 20 seconds.

In 1984 the term "high reps" was generally considered to mean 20 to 25. In 1996 the term has been redefined.

In traditional sports training athletes do high reps in the 70-to-100 range. Tudor Bompa, Ph.D. pointed this out to me once. As you may know, Tudor is one of the most respected sports-training experts in the world. He wasn1t very familiar with bodybuilders when I first met him though, so he saw things from a different perspective.

In the world of Olympic sports such as swimming and track and field, many athletes train on a periodization program that includes a muscle-endurance phase in which they work up to reps of 100 or more per set for a series of exercises. For example, they might do squats followed by crunches, bench presses and curl-grip, or underhand, lat pulldowns. That means performing up to 400 reps in a row.

Tudor was describing how the athletes got what he called a 3stringy look2 in their muscles during the endurance phase, and that set off a buzzer with me. He didn1t know bodybuilding terminology. Could what Tudor referred to as "stringy" be the exact condition that competitive bodybuilders seek to achieveÐthat is, cut?

I subsequently brought up this point with a top cellular-research scientist I know. Why is fat intertwined with muscle? Is it there just to protect the body? Fat has numerous jobs in the body, from protection, to creating heat to fueling energy needs. Since fat is a fuel, doesn1t it seem strange that we cannot burn this fat as fuel? What about the fatty acid in the blood, which we can even measure? There were no answers to my questions.

Adaptation Time

I also had questions about the length of the 1984 study. Twenty-seven days is not enough time to adapt to high-rep training. As you1ll recall, the subjects only worked up to 30 seconds. Based on the experiences of athletes using periodized training during a 12-week muscle-endurance phase, it can take eight weeks for the body to adapt to the high-rep training before it starts using fat as fuel during the final four weeks. At first you1re going to get the burn of your life due to lactic acid building up around the muscle and stopping it from contracting. Only after you build up your endurance can you make the shift and get the benefit.

What About the Diet?

The subjects in the study were college students, and the journal report made no mention of monitoring their diets. As I see it, this is a significant problem. How can you know why there is no significant change in fat levels if you don1t control what they eat? If those subjects were like the college students I know, I can only imagine what their diets were like. This is another reason why I think the researchers1 conclusions about spot reducing with high reps to be in error.

So What1s the Bottom Line on Spot Reduction?

Current research on circuit training with weights shows that an hour of that type of exercise burns more fat than an hour of aerobics. That helps explain why athletes who perform a series of high-rep exercises achieve natural muscular definition with low bodyfat. I believe that this holds true for specific areas of the body.

If you could do arm curls for three minutes without producing lactic acid, is it possible that you1d use up the ATP, begin using other systems and burn fatty acid as fuel in your biceps? Theoretically, it is, but three solid minutes of curling is a lot to ask of the typical musclehead.

The answer is to periodize your training. Your muscles will adapt to high-rep training if you take your time, including a phase like the muscle-endurance phase of a periodized sports program. You don1t have to use a lot of weight. Working your way up to 80 to 100 reps over a 12-week phase with a planned loading pattern will enable your body to adapt to this fat-burning process. The same holds true for abdominal exercise.

A focused program building up to ultrahigh reps of resistance-based exercises can1t help but have a positive effect on your midsection. If you1re lucky enough to be able to train on an Ab Bench, you get the extra benefit of a complete range of motion. (Unlike the partial contraction you get with crunch movements performed on the floor and all other ab machines, this device features a prestretch and complete contraction.)

I predict that science will prove my theory right. The accompanying statements by a number of experts indicate a whole new world of possibilities. While there will never be a miracle cure that enables someone with a big stomach to do hundreds of ab reps and get a washboard midsection, there is a way to strip off that last layer of fatÐsomething that should make a lot of bodybuilders very happy.

Frank Katch, Ph.D., of the University of Massachusetts is the co-author of Exercise Physiology (Lea & Febiger, fourth edition) and the author of what is probably the most quoted study in fitness history, "The Effects of Situp Exercise Training on Adipose Cell Size and Adiposity." When this study was first published in 1984, it was considered the most professional of its kind ever performed. Based on this study, most people in the fitness industry believe that it's impossible to burn fat with localized high-repetition weight training. When interviewed for this article, Katch made it clear that until there is a definite measuring tool, such a study done with magnetic resonance imaging, to determine if fat does come out of fat cells, he stands by his study and believes that it is still valid. Although everyone still quotes his study, Katch said that, other than my call, he hasn1t been contacted for his opinion on the subject for the last five years.


+ + + Und noch was + + +

Common Questions:
Can one spot reduce abdominal fat by performing sit-ups?
No. Research performed by Katch et al. examined this very question. Fat biopsies were taken at the abdominal, subscapular, and buttock sites before and after a 27-day period of progressively increased sit-up exercise training. The experimental group performed an average of 185 sit-ups daily in comparison to a control group who did not exercise. Sit-up intensity increased from 140 sit-ups at the end of the first week to 336 sit-ups on day 27. The sit-up program did not cause the abdominal fat cells to become significantly smaller than fat cells in the relatively unexercised buttocks or subscapular regions. There were no significant changes in fatfolds, girths, or total fat content assessed by underwater weight.

Quelle:
www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/abs-lambrinides.html


Gruß,

Ripped

Sorry, dass ganze hier ist sehr, sehr englisch:

Spot Training:
New Insights (September 1996 IRONMAN)
by Fred Koch
It's probably the most common question not only in bodybuilding but in all of fitness: Is it possible to spot train? Is it possible to burn localized fat with high-repetition weight training? No matter who you ask, you1ll get an unequivocal answer: no. There1s no such thing as spot training.

Bodybuilders and fitness enthusiasts alike take that no as gospelÐexcept, of course, that we're always secretly hoping it isn1t true. Why else would so many of us do hundreds of reps for the midsection when we don't train any other bodypart that way?

Maybe it's just instinctive. Bodybuilders have traditionally used this kind of high-rep training on their abdominals, despite the general belief that spot training doesn't work. When all the scientific evidence is finally in, however, it may turn out that the bodybuilders1 instincts were right.

The common belief about high reps and spot reduction is based on a study performed at the University of Massachusetts. The results of the study, titled "Effects of Situp Exercise Training on Adipose Cell Size and Adiposity," were published in a 1984 issue of Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport (Vol. 55., No. 3). At the time of the study the scientists used the latest data they had on localized fat reduction. I suggest that we1ve learned a few things since thenÐand that the premises and circumstances of the study may no longer apply.

The funny thing is, while people in the fitness industry all seem to know that there was some experiment that proved that spot reduction doesn1t work, almost no one is familiar with the research. During a recent seminar for personal trainers I conducted, I asked the crowd if anyone knew about this study or the criteria under which it was performed. To my amazement I discovered that not one of the highly trained individuals knew anything about it. Whether they knew it or not, however, their opinion on spot reducing was based on this study.

The experiment1s premise was to see if it was possible to burn fat in the stomach area by performing situps. The subjects used the standard bent-legs, elbow-to-knee situps we all did back in high school gym class. Thirteen male subjects took part in the 27-day experiment. On day 1 they did situps for 10 rounds of 10 seconds each, getting roughly seven reps per set, with 10 seconds1 rest between sets; and by the 27th day they worked up to 14 rounds of 30 seconds each, getting roughly 24 reps, with 10 seconds1 rest. Choice of Exercise

The problems with this experiment begin with the exercise used. I'm sure that almost everyone in the fitness industry today would agree that situps as they were performed in 1984 are not the exercise of choice for the abdominals. We1ve known for years that the situp performed on a flat floor is more of a hip flexor exercise and that the work done by the abs is mostly an isometric contraction. That in itself should be enough to set off buzzers about this study.

Then you have to consider how those situps were probably performed. Have you ever watched someone perform a high-rep set of situps? People never use perfect form on these. Instead, they use these jerky rock 1n1 roll-type movements that are not full contractions of the abdominals. Today we know that to work the abdominals effectively, the movement must be a perfect contraction of the abs through a full range of motion.

What's more, we also know that it takes a variety of resistance to work all the fibers in the target muscles to their maximum potential. You can't add resistance to situps, however; you1re limited to the weight of your body. Consequently, you may not be able to hit all the fibers in the target muscles with that movement. Definition of High Reps

This brings up several questions, not the least of which involves the energy systems used for the short bouts of exercise in the experiment. In 1984 the subjects worked up to 30 seconds of continuous energy. Today, we know that it takes at least two minutes of exercise for the fatty acids to kick in as fuel, with the ATP-PC cycle going to work for the first five to 10 seconds and glycolysis taking over at around 20 seconds.

In 1984 the term "high reps" was generally considered to mean 20 to 25. In 1996 the term has been redefined.

In traditional sports training athletes do high reps in the 70-to-100 range. Tudor Bompa, Ph.D. pointed this out to me once. As you may know, Tudor is one of the most respected sports-training experts in the world. He wasn1t very familiar with bodybuilders when I first met him though, so he saw things from a different perspective.

In the world of Olympic sports such as swimming and track and field, many athletes train on a periodization program that includes a muscle-endurance phase in which they work up to reps of 100 or more per set for a series of exercises. For example, they might do squats followed by crunches, bench presses and curl-grip, or underhand, lat pulldowns. That means performing up to 400 reps in a row.

Tudor was describing how the athletes got what he called a 3stringy look2 in their muscles during the endurance phase, and that set off a buzzer with me. He didn1t know bodybuilding terminology. Could what Tudor referred to as "stringy" be the exact condition that competitive bodybuilders seek to achieveÐthat is, cut?

I subsequently brought up this point with a top cellular-research scientist I know. Why is fat intertwined with muscle? Is it there just to protect the body? Fat has numerous jobs in the body, from protection, to creating heat to fueling energy needs. Since fat is a fuel, doesn1t it seem strange that we cannot burn this fat as fuel? What about the fatty acid in the blood, which we can even measure? There were no answers to my questions.

Adaptation Time

I also had questions about the length of the 1984 study. Twenty-seven days is not enough time to adapt to high-rep training. As you1ll recall, the subjects only worked up to 30 seconds. Based on the experiences of athletes using periodized training during a 12-week muscle-endurance phase, it can take eight weeks for the body to adapt to the high-rep training before it starts using fat as fuel during the final four weeks. At first you1re going to get the burn of your life due to lactic acid building up around the muscle and stopping it from contracting. Only after you build up your endurance can you make the shift and get the benefit.

What About the Diet?

The subjects in the study were college students, and the journal report made no mention of monitoring their diets. As I see it, this is a significant problem. How can you know why there is no significant change in fat levels if you don1t control what they eat? If those subjects were like the college students I know, I can only imagine what their diets were like. This is another reason why I think the researchers1 conclusions about spot reducing with high reps to be in error.

So What1s the Bottom Line on Spot Reduction?

Current research on circuit training with weights shows that an hour of that type of exercise burns more fat than an hour of aerobics. That helps explain why athletes who perform a series of high-rep exercises achieve natural muscular definition with low bodyfat. I believe that this holds true for specific areas of the body.

If you could do arm curls for three minutes without producing lactic acid, is it possible that you1d use up the ATP, begin using other systems and burn fatty acid as fuel in your biceps? Theoretically, it is, but three solid minutes of curling is a lot to ask of the typical musclehead.

The answer is to periodize your training. Your muscles will adapt to high-rep training if you take your time, including a phase like the muscle-endurance phase of a periodized sports program. You don1t have to use a lot of weight. Working your way up to 80 to 100 reps over a 12-week phase with a planned loading pattern will enable your body to adapt to this fat-burning process. The same holds true for abdominal exercise.

A focused program building up to ultrahigh reps of resistance-based exercises can1t help but have a positive effect on your midsection. If you1re lucky enough to be able to train on an Ab Bench, you get the extra benefit of a complete range of motion. (Unlike the partial contraction you get with crunch movements performed on the floor and all other ab machines, this device features a prestretch and complete contraction.)

I predict that science will prove my theory right. The accompanying statements by a number of experts indicate a whole new world of possibilities. While there will never be a miracle cure that enables someone with a big stomach to do hundreds of ab reps and get a washboard midsection, there is a way to strip off that last layer of fatÐsomething that should make a lot of bodybuilders very happy.

Frank Katch, Ph.D., of the University of Massachusetts is the co-author of Exercise Physiology (Lea & Febiger, fourth edition) and the author of what is probably the most quoted study in fitness history, "The Effects of Situp Exercise Training on Adipose Cell Size and Adiposity." When this study was first published in 1984, it was considered the most professional of its kind ever performed. Based on this study, most people in the fitness industry believe that it's impossible to burn fat with localized high-repetition weight training. When interviewed for this article, Katch made it clear that until there is a definite measuring tool, such a study done with magnetic resonance imaging, to determine if fat does come out of fat cells, he stands by his study and believes that it is still valid. Although everyone still quotes his study, Katch said that, other than my call, he hasn1t been contacted for his opinion on the subject for the last five years.


+ + + Und noch was + + +

Common Questions:
Can one spot reduce abdominal fat by performing sit-ups?
No. Research performed by Katch et al. examined this very question. Fat biopsies were taken at the abdominal, subscapular, and buttock sites before and after a 27-day period of progressively increased sit-up exercise training. The experimental group performed an average of 185 sit-ups daily in comparison to a control group who did not exercise. Sit-up intensity increased from 140 sit-ups at the end of the first week to 336 sit-ups on day 27. The sit-up program did not cause the abdominal fat cells to become significantly smaller than fat cells in the relatively unexercised buttocks or subscapular regions. There were no significant changes in fatfolds, girths, or total fat content assessed by underwater weight.

Quelle:
www.i-a-r-t.com/articles/abs-lambrinides.html


Gruß,

Ripped

@ Trainer
@all

Hallo!
Habe durch "Zufall" eine Seite entdeckt, die seriöse Infos parat hat. Dies bedeutet nicht, daß ein kommerzieller Hintergrund ausgeschlossen wird. Die Macher der Seite sind zum größten Teil Ärzte, die in Eigenversuchen die Wirkung des Präparates "Lipostabil" bei unzulässiger, sprich subkutaner Anwendung ausprobieren. Hier ist ein weiteres Stichwort "Fett-Weg-Spritze". Auf der Seite gibt es aber brauchbare Links! www. lipolyse.de
Ansonsten wie immer: googeln...

yohimburn scheint zu funktionieren ... Teste es selbst seit etwa einer Woche (linker - "yohimbinierter" - vs. rechter Oberschenkel)

Gruß

http://gin.uibk.ac.at/thema/sportund...rbrennung.html

[schild=19 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]müsst ihr mich so erschrecken?[/schild]

ich dachte schon, mario wäre wieder da.

- über 2 jahre alt der fred.

Hi!

Ich könnts ja jetzt hier nochmal fragen, obwohl ich wiederum glaube, dass ich trotzdem keine Antwort bekommen werde:

weiß jemand, was mit Mario geschehen ist??

Thx,
MDK

was soll passiert sein?

grosse fres.se, nichts dahinter. ist doch nicht wirklich überraschend.....
niemand hat was drauf, der sich nicht an der natur orientiert. niemand!
man, was hat der kluggeschis.sen, fast noch besser als ich.......

war auch ab und zu was interessantes bei, aber hatte keinen schimmer der junge.

zum glück bin ich da :daumen:

Man ist das alter Käse, aber lachen musste ich trotzdem.

So im Nachhinein hat Mario wirklich viel Müll abgeladen.

WO - in diesem Thread - hat Mario (eigenen) "Müll" abgelassen???

Mario fehlt diesem Forum wie kaum ein anderer Ex-BBszene-User.

PS: Eine lokale Fettverbrennung ist natürlich im konkreten Wortsinn nicht möglich - hat in dieser Absolutheit bestimmt auch ni jemand wirklich so behauptet, eine LENKUNG des Fettabbaus zu bestimmten "Zonen" hin ist durch gezieltes Training zumindest denkbar.

Gruß

In der Flex war mal ein Bericht mit einer Studie über Ernährung!
Dabei hatte die eine Gruppe mit fettreiche Diät vermehrt am Unterkörper Fett abgebaut, die andere Gruppe mit fettarmer Diät ausgeglichener am ganzen Körper Fett abgebaut.

Wenns dich interessiert schau ich mal nach.

Zum Thema Mario

Auszug aus PPE:

Ein fast fettfreier Muskelaufbau!?



"Gibt es eine Möglichkeit, zur gleichen Zeit Muskelmasse auf-
und Körperfett abzubauen?"


Nein, die gibt es in der Regel nicht (*). Es besteht aber die
Möglichkeit, Deinen Muskelaufbau zu MAXIMIEREN und den
Fettaufbau zu MINIMIEREN (ohne ihn ELIMIEREN zu können, leider).

(*) Editor´s Note: Unter bestimmten Umständen, während der
Zufuhr von Stoff beispielsweise sowie zu (Wieder-)Beginn der
Trainingsaktivität (… also wenn man (wieder) ganz von vorne
anfängt) ist es aus irgendeinem Grund möglich, GLEICHZEITIG
Muskeln aufzubauen und Fett abzubauen, aber auch NUR dann!


OHNE WORTE & ZUM HEULEN !