Freies Langhantel-Rudern

[d'Angelo]

@lupus
danke, werds ausprobieren

bye

[DareDevil]

Das Problem bei den Cambered Bar Lying Rows ist doch wieder, daß die Übung durch bewusste Entlastung des unteren Rückens zu einer Isolationsübung mutiert. Ich hatte mich ja schon einmal in einem anderen Thread dahingehend geäußert, daß nichts wichtiger ist, als alle an einer Grundübung beteiligten Muskelgruppen zu berücksichtigen und die Übung eben genau durch eine disjunktive Konzentration auf die vermeintlich wichtigen Muskeln an Wert verliert. Lupus und auch viele andere Teilnehmer hier sagen, man solle die Arme beim Langhantelrudern lediglich als Haken oder Ketten betrachten, um den Bizeps möglichst wenig an der Übung zu beteiligen, schließlich soll doch primär der Rücken trainiert werden. Diese Ansicht wird aber nicht dem Terminus multi joint exercise gerecht. Die großen Muskeln (hier in diesem Beispiel der komplette Rücken) wachsen doch erst dann maximal, wenn sie als funktionelle Einheit im Verbund mit allen an der Übung irgendwie beteiligten Muskeln trainiert werden. Ein solche Betrachtung hingegen schließt - bei allem Respekt vor Stuart McRobert - Übungen wie etwa die Cambered Bar Lying Rows oder Übungen mit Zughilfen und Übungen an Maschinen sowie Übungen, die sich Techniken bedienen, mit Hilfe derer die Übung in irgendeiner Weise erleichtert werden soll, aus.

[Schweinehund]

Ich sehe das genauso wie lupus.

Stephan

[lupus]

Ich sehe das genauso wie Schweinehund.

[SirLiftalot]

bump this bitch bis morgen.
Brauche in meinem Alter langsam überall Notizen, sonst vergess ich alles.

[SirLiftalot]

Interessanter Thread und gute Fragen von Christian.
Antworten zu den Fragen hat alle Bryan Haycock gegeben.
Geht in die Studios und guckt WIE die Leute trainieren.
Nichtmals Seitheben wird richtig ausgeführt. Bei jeder Wiederholung mit zuviel Gewicht schwingt das Ego gleich mit etc. pp.
Man kann so jahrelang trainieren und nichts passiert.
Oder: Man kann endlich mal jede Bewegung wieder vom Anfang lernen und wachsen.

Mal ganz allgemein eine unverzichtbare Weisheit:

how does grip width and different angles change the stimulus?

In general, when person moves their grip from wide to narrow, the elbows will pull in towards the side of the body during the pulling motion. This changes the line of pull transferred to the muscles of the back and shoulders.
It also changes the degree of stretch, or the length of the muscle during the contraction.

As for recruitment, the innervation of the lats is from the thoracodorsal nerve. With practice you can lean to control the lat, apart from the surrounding musculature. This however, isn’t necessary for typical lifting, nor is it possible with heavy loads.

Think of the lat as a sheet that can experience different levels of tension depending on how you stretch it.
Training a muscle in a lengthened position will cause more microtrauma than training it in a shortened position. Decline curls stretches the short (inner) head more than the outer (long) head of the biceps simply due to their different origins. The short head originating at the coracoid process and the outer head attaches to the humerus. So the outer head doesn’t stretch as the upper arm is moved away from the center line of the body whereas the inner head does.

The pec minor actually lies beneath the pec major so you don’t actually see it. The pec minor attaches to the ribs and the coracoid process. The pec minor simply pulls the shoulder girdle forward. The pec major moves the upper arm because of its insertion at the humerus.
Studies have shown that the upper portion of the pec is usually just as active as the lower portion during heavy flat bench. However, there is some benefit to doing incline bench because it seems to help build the clavicular portion of the pecs and the front delts.

Nothing isolates the “inner” portion of chest. The myth arose out of the “sensation” that one feels as the pec becomes cramped while contracting it (with the arms brought close together in front of the body and flexed hard). Isolating the inner pec is like isolating one portion of a rubber band as you stretch it from either end. Now, there are differences in the way the muscle experiences stress due to the convergence of the fibers near the insertions at the musculo-tendonus junction...but that’s more detail than is necessary.

One thing everyone should keep in mind. The distribution of androgen receptors is not even throughout the body. There is a greater density of androgen receptors on the shoulder girdle (delts, traps, upper pecs). You will notice, that once a guy begins to use androgens, he almost immediately grows traps and delts. In short, there are disproportional increases in muscle mass in certain muscle groups when one begins using steroids. This is due to androgen receptor distribution patterns.

All right, we already went over the neurological adaptations that a muscle will undergo when exposed to a new movement. So aside from neurological issues, changing an exercise for the same muscle group does what?

1) It changes the angle of the limb to the body and/or the position of body itself

2) It usually changes the degree of stretch that the muscle experiences during the movement.

3) 2a) Incident to this, the muscle will also often experience a change in the distribution of resistance throughout the movement (free weights are not isotonic do to the fixed direction of gravitational pull and the variable angle of pull of the muscle/joint).

So now you have to ask yourself, how do these things effect what we know about “why” muscles hypertrophy. Lets look at them 1 at a time.

1) It changes the angle of the limb(s) in relation to the body and/or the position of the body itself. Great, but does this really effect a muscle which has both a fixed origin and insertion? No. All the muscle knows, is that it is stretched to a given degree, and then forced to contract. Your “brain” knows where the muscle is in space (proprioception) but the muscle doesn’t know anything of the sort. It is 2 dimensional for the most part. It does only two things, it lengthens and shortens in a straight line between its origin and insertion. You can’t change that straight line between origin and insertion, only its orientation to the body or other frame of reference.

2) It usually changes the degree of stretch that the muscle experiences during the movement. Does this really affect hypertrophy? YES!! It absolutely does. When a muscle goes from less stretch, to more stretch, it will elicit a hypertrophic response.

3) Or “2a”, the muscle will also often experience a change in the distribution of resistance throughout the movement. Will this effect hypertrophy? Generally No. It only encourages neurological adaptations to better able itself to generate force at a given muscle length. As the SAID principle demonstrates, you will increase strength in that specific range of motion where the resistance is highest. .

EMG Messungen / Vorgebeugtes Rudern

Using EMG to determine how effective an exercise is

EMG reflects the level of "electrical" activation of the muscle. As such it is a good indicator of how hard a muscle is contracting. However, it isn't perfect. Having done EMG research myself while in school (Ex phys labs) I know that there are inherent weaknesses to the methods. Nevertheless, if you want to know how much electrical activity is going on in a muscle (or at least a certain part of that muscle), EMG is the best we've got.

In a very real sense, EMG is a result of voluntary effort. So, the harder you try to contract the muscle, the greater EMG activity you will see, regardless of how heavy it is. This brings in a great deal of between-subject, and between-trial error in measurements.

EMG is also greatly affected by practice or coordination. A person who is not well practiced at a given exercise will often display erratic EMG read outs.

Fatigue also changes EMG readouts. The more fatigue there is, the greater the EMG amplitude.

Keep in mind as well that during eccentric contractions, EMG amplitude goes down significantly, yet at the same time, the eccentric portion of an exercise presents a greater stimulus for growth than the concentric portion.

EMG as a tool specifically relating to bodybuilding (muscle growth) is not an accurate indicator of the efficacy of a given exercise to induce growth. The efficacy of any exercise is determined by the load, the duration, and the condition of the tissue at the time the load is applied.

For the lats, the load is limited by your strength level and degree of stretch during loading. The duration is limited by your “strength-endurance”, and time in the stretched position. The condition of the muscle is determined by what you have done with your lats in the last 6 weeks or so.

So, speaking in general (i.e. simplified) and acute (i.e. one training session) terms, the heavier any lat exercise becomes, the more effective it will become. The more volume you do at that weight, the more effective that session will be. The greater the stretch experienced by the lat and the longer you hold it, the more effective that exercise will be. And finally, the longer its been since you trained your lats, the more effective that session will be.

On a personal note, nothing has been as effective as the weighted eccentric chins/pull-ups at the end of an HST cycle for putting on real thickness on my lats.The degee of stretch in the lats if also significant. Pull-ups done correctly will cause significantly more microtrauma to the lats simpyl because of the length of the fibers when they are under tension.

I have found that most guys/girls who have been lifting quit a while will not derive any benefit other than strength, from pull ups unless they are using weighted eccentric pull-ups. This of course should be worked up to. People who try them without proper ramping up of their weight loads generally experience muscle strains in their formarms (brachioradialis).


- Bryan

Form:
Anmerkung: Scaps = Schulterblätter.
Nach jeder Rep. die Scaps wieder relaxen.
Es macht kaum Sinn seine Lats mit vorgebeugtem Rudern trainieren zu wollen und dabei nur die Arme ranzunehmen, wie es soo oft im Studio passiert. Bei sauberer Technik sollten die 120 KG, die Lupus anstrebt noch auf Jahre Utopie sein. Bodybuilder sind ausschliesslich ihrem Spiegelbild verpflichtet. Ego zu hause lassen und wachsen. BTW, Back Squat und Keuzheben stellen ein zig mal höheres Risiko für die LWS dar, als es saubere Bent Over Rows je tun werden.

When I left fitness training to get back into massage, some of my gym clients became massage clients. Several of these people had similar posture (along with neck pain and/or headaches). None of them were very good at rowing motions and I a$$umed it was some kind of "communication" problem... that these people couldn't figure out how to tell their shoulder blades to move properly.

What I found out when I got my hands on them, was that they could not move the scapulae properly. Their upper back paraspinal musculature was in chronic spasm reducing proper movement of their spine. And worse, the muscles in the shoulder girdle were so locked together that their scapula were firmly fixed to the ribcage.

In other words, in a healthy relaxed shoulder, I can get my hand part way between the scapula and the back, and the shoulder blade glides smoothly. On these folks, the blades were hardly moving at all. Imagine the stresses that puts on the rotator cuff and surrounding structures!

Typical with this posture then is "stuck" scapulae, immobility in the thoracic (upper) spine, overstretched and fatigued upper back muscles, and chronically contracted muscles in the front of the neck, shoulders and chest.

Proper exercise could indeed improve the posture, but deep tissue massage would certainly speed up the process. Rowing exercises should focus on squeezing the shoulder blades together (without lifting the shoulders toward the ears) and then feeling the shoulder blades pull apart as the arms extend.

The muscles in the front of the shoulders and the chest need to be strengthened and lengthened. Flyes or pec deck would work nicely for that. The shoulder blades should be moving somewhat for this exercise, although your friend should try to keep them from rolling up around his ears...

For the "stuck" upper back, he could try some hyper extensions, but focus on trying to make the motion come from his upper back rather than his lower back. Lying face up over a Swiss ball would definitely stretch that tight spot. Use a spotter the first time.

Its impossible to know what you have going on without watching you move, but stretching over the Swiss ball is a great way to bring mobility back to that area. If you do full range of motion crunches over the ball, you should be able to encourage some motion in the upperback as well as the lower. Hyper extensions over the ball should help too.

If you cannot bring your scaps together without lifting them, you either have a faulty movement pattern or a lack of mobility in at least one plane of motion. When you contract your lower traps and spinal erectors, your rib cage should lift up and your shoulders slide back (think down with the blades until you get a feel for it).

A perfect row should go like this:

1. No motion at the hips... this is not a glutes and hammies exercise. Keep the hips at approximately 90 degrees and don't rock.

2. Begin the motion by drawing the arms back without changing the bend in the elbows. The only way to do this is to draw your shoulder blades together. If you cannot pull the bar back a few inches without bending your arms, you are not getting those scaps moving.

3. Once the scaps are drawn together, pull back through the elbows, lifting the rib cage at the same time. Imagine you are doing a chin and try to lift that chest up as you pull the elbows back. This definitely requires motion in the thoracic spine.

4. Remember, this exercise is about squeezing the back and not about what the bar is doing. When you can't squeeze your back any harder the bar is as close to you as it needs to get. If you pull that bar to the belly as many people do and let the shoulders roll forward you are dropping that resistance right off the muscles you are trying to target.

I'm a stickler for form, partly because of the number of injuries I've seen caused by lousy form (had a few myself). The truth is, beautiful form yields beautiful results.

[TricepsTitan]

Sehr informativer Beitrag, SL.

Woher bekommst du solche Artikel denn? Würde mich sehr interessieren.

[Tuney.]

@Sirliftalot

Du sagst es.Genau so sieht es beim Bankdrücken aus.Alle in meinem Studio sind fanatisch auf die Übung,und das erste was passiert,wenn du das Studio betrittst,ist Frage,wieviel du drückst.Deswegen bin ICH der Meinung,dass man nicht unbedingt BD machen muss.Ich selber merke bei Maschinen meine Brust einfach viel besser,und ich habe nicht diesen Druck immer mehr zu drücken...

[COMMANDER XXL]

du hast recht, SL!
das stört unheimlich, den das ist genau die treffende höhe!

bin noch nie auf die idee gekommen, die vorgebeugt zu machen, werd ich bald mal probieren

[zyko]

aaach, eine anmerkung zum stuck upper back: schei* auf alles, wenn man probleme mit der brustwirbelsäule hat! zercher kreuzheben (ein round back lift!!) und overhead squats bringen es schneller und besser als alles andere. natürlich ist es für menschen mit "stuck upper backs" enorm schwierig und leider sind nur 0,001% aller trainees überhaupt ambitioniert genug, um diese moves zu machen. aber real results require real effort, wie es so schön heißt. bis man die erfolge mit rudern sieht, vergehen jahre. zercher deads und overhead squats erledigen den job in wenigen wochen.