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Ich schätze, da hast Du was falsch verstanden - Molke ist vielmehr ein "Abfallprodukt" der Quark- bzw. Käseherstellung. Es ist also genau anders herum: Nicht Quark entsteht aus Molke, sondern Molke "entseht" als Beiprodukt bei der Quarkherstellung.
Gruß
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Flex Leser
Rantanplan kannst du jetzt mal stellung nehmen zur behauptung Casein sei schädlich? Auser bei Wikipedia finde ich im Internet gar nix gazu!
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Ich habe mal irgendwo in einem Artikel von Cordain gelesen, dass Casein (ich meine es handelte sich um Tierstudien) im Vergleich zu Sojaprotein stärker atherogen wirkt - also im Vergleich zu Soja ein höheres Risiko für Herzinfarkt u.ä. nach sich zieht (während Soja-Protein wiederum scheinbar stärker atherogen wirkt als Fleischprotein).
Allerdings kenne ich die Studien nicht selbst und ehrlich gesagt bezweifle ich ein wenig, dass man diese Ergebnisse so ohne weiteres auf den Menschen übertragen kann. Zudem ging es dabei - so wie es aussieht - ja um das relative Risiko.
...und scheinbar gibt´s dann noch mal Unterschiede zwischen verschiedenen Milchproteinfraktionen:
Atherosclerosis. 2003 Sep;170(1):13-9.
A casein variant in cow's milk is atherogenic.
Tailford KA, Berry CL, Thomas AC, Campbell JH.
Centre for Research in Vascular Biology, School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Qld 4072, Australia.
Casein is a major protein in cow's milk that occurs in several variant forms, two of which are beta-casein A1 and beta-casein A2. The levels of these two proteins vary considerably in milk dependent on the breed of cow, and epidemiology studies suggest that there is a relationship between their consumption and the degree of atherosclerosis. In the present study, the direct effect of consumption of beta-casein A1 vs beta-casein A2 on atherosclerosis development was examined in a rabbit model. Sixty rabbits had their right carotid artery balloon de-endothelialised at t=0, divided randomly into 10 groups (n=6 per group), then for 6 weeks fed a diet containing 0, 5, 10 or 20% casein isolate, either beta-casein variant A1 or A2, made up to 20% milk protein with whey. Some groups had their diets supplemented with 0.5% cholesterol. Blood samples were collected at t=0, 3 and 6 weeks and rabbits were sacrificed at t=6 weeks. In the absence of dietary cholesterol, beta-casein A1 produced significantly higher (P<0.05) serum cholesterol, LDL, HDL and triglyceride levels than whey diet alone, which in turn produced higher levels than beta-casein A2. Rabbits fed beta-casein A1 had a higher percent surface area of aorta covered by fatty streaks than those fed beta-casein A2 (5.2+/-0.81 vs 1.1+/-0.39, P<0.05) and the thickness of the fatty streak lesions in the aortic arch was significantly higher (0.04+/-0.010 vs 0.00, P<0.05). Similarly, the intima to media ratio (I:M) of the balloon injured carotid arteries in A1 fed animals (0.77+/-0.07) was higher than in those that consumed A2 (0.57+/-0.04) or whey (0.58+/-0.04), but this did not reach significance. In the presence of 0.5% dietary cholesterol, the thickness of the aortic arch lesions was higher (P<0.05) in 5, 10 and 20% casein A1 fed animals compared with their A2 counterparts, while other parameters were not significantly different. It is concluded that beta-casein A1 is atherogenic compared with beta-casein A2.
Verbesserung: Wenn ich oben geschrieben habe, dass Soja-Protein stärker atherogen wirkt als Fleischprotein so bedeutet das eigentlich vielmehr, dass Fleischprotein die Blutfettwerte in günstigerer Weise beeinflusst als Soja-Protein. Genau genommen verbessern aber beide Proteinarten die Blutfettwerte - wirken tendentiell also anti-atherogen.
Ebenso wie im Link unten Casein grundsätzlich günstige Wirkungen auf die Blutfettwerte hat.
Alles in allem scheint mir die Geschichte von geringer Alltagsrelevanz zu sein.
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...wegen Fehler editert...
...ich lasse mal nur den Link ohne Kommentar stehen:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/1/78
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Noch mal was zum Thema Beta-Casein A1:
N Z Med J. 2003 Jan 24;116(1168):U295.
Comment in:
N Z Med J. 2003 Feb 21;116(1169):U346.
N Z Med J. 2003 Jan 24;116(1168):U291.
N Z Med J. 2003 Mar 14;116(1170):U368.
N Z Med J. 2003 Mar 14;116(1170):U375.
Ischaemic heart disease, Type 1 diabetes, and cow milk A1 beta-casein.
Laugesen M, Elliott R.
Health New Zealand, Auckland, New Zealand. laugesen@healthnz.co.nz
AIM: To test the correlation of per capita A1 beta-casein (A1/capita) and milk protein with: 1) ischaemic heart disease (IHD) mortality; 2) Type 1 (insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus (DM-1) incidence. METHODS: A1/capita was estimated as the product of per capita cow milk and cream supply and its A1 beta-casein content (A1/beta) (calculated from herd tests and breed distribution, or from tests of commercial milk), then tested for correlation with: 1) IHD five years later in 1980, 1985, 1990 and 1995, in 20 countries which spent at least US $1000 (purchasing power parities) per capita in 1995 on healthcare; 2) DM-1 at age 0-14 years in 1990-4 (51 were surveyed by WHO DiaMond Project; 19 had A1 data). For comparison, we also correlated 77 food, and 110 nutritive supply FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization)-based measures, against IHD and DM-1. RESULTS: For IHD, cow milk proteins (A1/capita, r = 0.76, p <0.001; A1/capita including cheese, r = 0.66; milk protein r = 0.60, p = 0.005) had stronger positive correlations with IHD five years later, than fat supply variables, such as the atherogenic index (r = 0.50), and myristic, the 14-carbon saturated fat (r = 0.48, p <0.05). The Hegsted scores for estimating serum cholesterol (r = 0.42); saturated fat (r = 0.37); and total dairy fat (r = 0.31) were not significant for IHD in 1995. Across the 20 countries, a 1% change in A1/capita in 1990 was associated with a 0.57% change in IHD in 1995. A1/capita correlations were stronger for male than female mortality. On multiple regression of A1/capita and other food supply variables in 1990, only A1/capita was significantly correlated with IHD in 1995. DM-1 was correlated with supply of: A1/capita in milk and cream (r = 0.92, p <0.00001); milk and cream protein excluding cheese (r = 0.68, p <0.0001); and with A1/beta in milk and cream (r = 0.47, p <0.05). Correlations were not significant for A2, B or C variants of milk beta-casein. DM-1 incidence at 0-4, 5-9 and 10-14 years was equally correlated (r = 0.80, 0.81, 0.81 respectively) with milk protein supply. A 1% change in A1/capita was associated with a 1.3% change in DM-1 in the same direction. CONCLUSIONS: Cow A1 beta-casein per capita supply in milk and cream (A1/capita) was significantly and positively correlated with IHD in 20 affluent countries five years later over a 20-year period--providing an alternative hypothesis to explain the high IHD mortality rates in northern compared to southern Europe. For DM-1, this study confirms Elliott's 1999 correlation on 10 countries for A1/capita,1 but not for B beta-casein/capita. Surveys of A1 beta-casein consumption in two-year-old Nordic children, and some casein animal feeding experiments, confirm the A1/capita and milk protein/capita correlations. They raise the possibility that intensive dairy cattle breeding may have emphasised a genetic variant in milk with adverse effects in humans. Further animal research and clinical trials would be needed to compare disease risks of A1-free versus 'ordinary' milk.
Darauf antwortet ein gewisser Hill unter anderem:
The paper by Laugesen and Elliott 1 published recently in the NZMJ ( http://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/116-1168/295/) contains a number of inconsistencies that seriously bring into question its conclusion that consumption of A1-casein has a significant influence on heart disease and Type 1 diabetes.
As with any epidemiological study, all that this paper demonstrates is a relationship and not cause and effect. In the absence of other information, at best it provides a starting point for further research targeted at establishing true cause and effect. (...)
Type 1 diabetes
The reference to the feeding trials and particularly the paper by Beales et al, does not mention that the main conclusion from the trials was that milk-based diets, including the A1-casein diet, were protective against diabetes compared with a milk-free, wheat-predominant diet, which was highly diabetogenic. (...)
The fact that the inclusion of the B and C variants of beta-casein in the analysis weakened the relationship between milk consumption and the incidence of Type 1 diabetes is very difficult to explain mechanistically.
The inclusion of cheese also weakened the relationship between milk consumption and the incidence of Type 1 diabetes. Again, as most cheeses contain a significant amount of A1-casein, from a mechanistic perspective it is difficult to explain why this should be the case. Based on our understanding of dairy chemistry, the inclusion of cheese should strengthen and not weaken the relationship. As Laugesen and Elliott themselves state, A1 consumption has been declining across 17 of the countries they analysed, yet the incidence of diabetes has been increasing markedly. Therefore, other factors must be responsible for the marked increase in Type 1 diabetes in children.
Ischaemic heart disease
One of the main criticisms of this work, as mentioned by Laugesen and Elliott, is that the authors could find no relationship between the consumption of tobacco and deaths due to heart disease, when this is already known to be a significant risk factor. The lack of a correlation with tobacco consumption very much highlights the dangers of relying on epidemiological data as evidence of cause and effect.
The authors have used deaths due to heart disease and not the incidence of the disease in their correlations. Using data on forty countries, we have recently completed work looking at the relationship between heart disease and the consumption of a whole range of foods. As we believe it is not valid to subject these data to a number of unsubstantiated manipulations in order to provide a value for A1-casein consumption, we used milk protein.3 In doing so, we made the assumption that if there was something in milk protein, such as A1-casein, that was strongly associated with the induction of diseases, then by using data from enough countries we would expect to see a significant relationship between disease and the per capita consumption of milk protein. In our analysis we found that milk protein was correlated with neither deaths due to heart disease nor the non-fatal incidence of heart disease.
Die Diskussion geht dann noch weiter - das erspare ich mir mal. Mein Fazit hierzu: Alles noch ziemlich spekulativ.
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...habe mir gerade mal so eine Kaninchen-Studie angesehen, bei der Soja und Casein verglichen wurde.
Ann Nutr Metab. 2001;45(1):38-46.
Casein and soy protein isolate in experimental atherosclerosis: influence on hyperlipidemia and lipoprotein oxidation.
Damasceno NR, Gidlund MA, Goto H, Dias CT, Okawabata FS, Abdalla DS.
Departamento de Alimentos e Nutricao Experimental, Faculdade de Ciencias Farmaceuticas, Universidade de Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brasil.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: Nutrients able to modify the susceptibility of lipoproteins to oxidation and/or reduce the cholesterol levels of blood plasma are important for prevention and/or treatment of atherosclerosis. The influence of animal and vegetable proteins on hypercholesterolemia and atherogenesis has been studied, concerning the mechanisms able to modify the digestion, absorption and bioavailability of lipids. In this study, the influence of casein and soy protein isolate on lipoprotein oxidation and atherosclerosis progression was investigated in cholesterol-fed rabbits. METHODS: During 2 months, 20 New Zealand rabbits were fed with diets containing 1% cholesterol and 27% casein or 27% soy protein isolate. Blood samples were collected at baseline, 15, 30, 45 and 60 days of feeding. RESULTS: Casein feeding contributed to increasing cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations, lipoprotein oxidation and the area of aorta atherosclerotic lesions. In contrast, the soy protein isolate reduced, when compared to casein, the concentrations of cholesterol and lipid peroxides of beta-VLDL and LDL fractions during the experimental time course, as well as the area of atherosclerotic lesions at the end of the study. CONCLUSION: Soy protein isolate, in comparison with casein, promoted a decrease of lipid peroxides, cholesterol and triglyceride content of atherogenic lipoproteins (beta-VLDL and LDL), which had beneficial effects over atherosclerosis progression in cholesterol-fed rabbits. Copyright 2001 S. Karger AG, Basel.
Man sieht hier schon deutlich, dass die Kaninchen quasi mit Cholesterin vollgestopft wurden. Es wurde also experimentell eine Hypercholesterinämie erzeugt (Kaninchen reagieren im Vergleich zum Menschen sehr sensibel auf diätisches Cholesterin). Die Autoren schreiben weiterhin, dass Casein bei Kaninchen auch unabhängig von einer Cholesteringabe atherogen wirkt - u.a. indem es die Cholesterinaufmnahme im Darm erhöht, die VLDL-Synthese erhöht und den LDL-Rezeptor negativ beeinflusst. Zusätzlich wird angenommen, dass der im Vergleich zu Sojaprotein hohe Anteil an Lysin und BCAA´s den Cholesterinspiegel erhöht und eine Verringerung der Schilddrüsenhormonwerte durch Casein eine Rolle bei der Erhöhung der Blutfettwerte spielt. Zusätzlich soll Soja im Vergleich zu Casein die Umwandlung von Linolsäure zu Arachidonsäure unterdrücken ect.
Die Blutfettwerte der Tiere schossen also gen Himmel. Vor diesem Hintergrund war Sojaprotein in der Lage den LDL-Anstieg im Vergleich zur CaseinDiät etwas abzufangen. Ebenso war die Cholesterin-Oxidation in der Casein-Gruppe höher u.ä.
Nun - klingt alles sehr extrem. Nur darf man dabei eben nicht vergessen, dass es sich hier um ein Kaninchenexperiment handelt, dessen Ergebnise man ganz klar nicht 1:1 auf den Menschen übertragen kann.
Damit sind diese Studienergebnisse für einen gesunden Menschen mit normalen Blutfettwerten m.E. praktisch vollkommen irrelevant.
So schreiben die Autoren selbst:
Considering the differences of lipid metabolism between humans and rabbits, it is not possible to directly extrapolate our conclusions to humans.
Wie oben schon gezeigt, verringert eine Casein-Supplementation die Blutfettwerte beim Menschen sogar.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/1/78/T3
Übrigens, der wikipedia-Artikel besagt ja nicht, dass Casein per se schädlich ist, sondern lediglich, dass wohl manche Menschen allergisch darauf reagieren (ebenso wie manche Menschen auf andere Lebensmittel allergisch reagieren) bzw. einige wenige leute Casein scheinbar nicht richtig verdauen können. Für Otto-Normalverbraucher also ebenfalls irrelevant.
Und daher empfehle ich: http://www.bbszene.de/board/viewtopic.php4?t=37969
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75-kg-Experte/in
Hab mal den Spam entfernt. Finde aber nicht, dass hier bisher entscheidene Argumente gegen Quark, Käse etc. gefallen sind.
shorty
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Eisenbeißer/in
@rantie
danke
wenn du das ganze nun in FÜNF kurzen deutschen sätzen zusammenfassen müsstest, die auf eine checkkarte passen könnten, so das auch ein user wie Odin 69 es verstehen und nachvollziehen kann, wie würdest du es dann formulieren?
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So wie ich das sehe - und ich habe mich mit diesem Thema ja auch noch nicht wirklich umfassend beschäftigt, sondern nur gestern mal so "im Vorbeigehen" einiges kurz überflogen - ist Casein für einen gesunden Menschen mit normalen Blutfettwerten, kein Problem. Wichtiger ist hier vielmehr eine allgemein gesunde Ernährung und Sport.
Für Personen mit Hypercholesterinämie könnte es vielleicht etwas günstiger sein, wenn sie anstatt Casein mehr Sojaprotein essen. Aber ich sehe absolut keine Veranlassung dafür, Casein grundsätzlich als gefährlich einzustufen. Auch das Fazit der Autoren der oben genannten Kaninchenstudie ist nicht, dass Casein gefährlich sei, sondern vielmehr, dass für Menschen mit hohen Blutfettwerten unter Umständen Sojaprotein im Vergleich zu Casein eine günstigere Alternative ist.
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Eisenbeißer/in
und nochmal @rantie - danke !
..da.fragt es sich, welche nahrungsmittel für wirklich alle menschen uneingeschränkt verzehrbar sind......
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