Nach dem Training...Aminos pur oder Whey?

[choco]

zum thema
"kohlenhydrate sind nicht nötig, auch ohne kh in der pwn wird das EW nach dem training nicht zur energiegewinnung benutzt."

...dies war ja deine aussage...
gruß

[choco]

naja... ich bin mir im moment nicht so sicher ob son SchokoShake mit Traubensaft schmeckt aber et soll ja auch nich schmecken ne?! ))
wenn ich dabei noch Creatin (kre alkalyn) nehme kann ich das auch dazumischen??

deswegen trink ich auch immer erst den traubensaft (dextro+whey ist mir viel zu süß) mit crea und 1gr. vitamin c und direkt hinterher den wheyshake (vanille) mit wasser.

[traubensaft also dextro + creatin ist ja eh klar, wurde aber sogar nacvhgewiesen das wenn du dazu noch whey nimmst, steigt dein insulinspiegel noch höher an als nur mit dextrose.]

[daCaMo]

gut...dann würde mein kompletter supplement plan also so aussehen

Morgens: 1Kapsel Kre Alkalyn
Vor dem Training : 3 Messlöffel NO X-Plode
Nach dem Training: 1 l (wie soll ich den runterkriegen??) + 3 x Kre Alkalyn + Whey
vor dem Schlafen: 1 x Kre Alkalyn?!

oder habt ihr ne bessere idee? speziell @ choco und rantanplan??

[choco]

würde vor dem schlafen kein creatin mehr nehmen, du solltest crea ja eh auf leeren magen nehmen und das hab zumindest ich abends nie einen. und auch keine lust extra darauf zu achten....
würde das kre-alkalyn wie folgt nehmen,

trainingsfreie tage:
4stück morgens und an

trainingstagen:
2 stück morgens
2 stück vorm Training und
2 stück nach dem training

(evtl. kannst du hier auch nur 4 nehmen, vielleicht die einnahme morgens einfach weglassen...)


wie du 1L. Traubensaft runterbekommst kann ich dir nicht sagen, kenne deinen magen nicht, du kannst ja aber auch mal mit dextrose versuchen im wheyshake oder traubensaft+dextrose oder oder.... musst du für dich selbst rausfinden.
wieviel dextrose kommt auch immer auf die intensität und länge des trainings an und ob du diätest oder aufbau machst, musst du am besten m.m.n. für dich rausfinden was optimal für dich ist. zwischen 0,5 und 1,0 gr. /kg einfach mal ne weile testen.

gruß

was ich liebe ist gatorade nen liter nachm training, hab ich in 10 sec. unten, schmeckt einfach nur richtig geil, aber leider viel zu teuer

[rantanplan]

zum thema
"kohlenhydrate sind nicht nötig, auch ohne kh in der pwn wird das EW nach dem training nicht zur energiegewinnung benutzt."

...dies war ja deine aussage...
gruß

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Oct;283(4):E648-57.

Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise.

Borsheim E, Tipton KD, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Department of Surgery, Shriners Hospital for Children/Galveston, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA.

This study tests the hypothesis that a dose of 6 g of orally administered essential amino acids (EAAs) stimulates net muscle protein balance in healthy volunteers when consumed 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise. Subjects received a primed constant infusion of L-[(2)H(5)]phenylalanine and L-[1-(13)C]leucine. Samples from femoral artery and vein and biopsies from vastus lateralis were obtained. Arterial EAA concentrations increased severalfold after drinks. Net muscle protein balance (NB) increased proportionally more than arterial AA concentrations in response to drinks, and it returned rapidly to basal values when AA concentrations decreased. Area under the curve for net phenylalanine uptake above basal value was similar for the first hour after each drink (67 +/- 17 vs. 77 +/- 20 mg/leg, respectively). Because the NB response was double the response to two doses of a mixture of 3 g of EAA + 3 g of nonessential AA (NEAA) (14), we conclude that NEAA are not necessary for stimulation of NB and that there is a dose-dependent effect of EAA ingestion on muscle protein synthesis.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.

Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.

Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.

PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism. METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5) RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis. CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.

J Appl Physiol. 2004 Feb;96(2):674-8. Epub 2003 Oct 31.

Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise.

Borsheim E, Cree MG, Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Aarsland A, Wolfe RR.

Department of Surgery, Shriners Hospitals for Children-Galveston, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of ingestion of 100 g of carbohydrates on net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus protein breakdown) after resistance exercise. Two groups of eight subjects performed a resistance exercise bout (10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg presses at 80% of 1-repetition maximum) before they rested in bed for 4 h. One group (CHO) received a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates 1 h postexercise. The other group (Pla) received a noncaloric placebo drink. Leg amino acid metabolism was determined by infusion of 2H5- or 13C6-labeled phenylalanine, sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis. Drink intake did not affect arterial insulin concentration in Pla, whereas insulin increased several times after the drink in CHO (P < 0.05 vs. Pla). Arterial phenylalanine concentration fell slightly after the drink in CHO. Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 +/- 3 nmol.ml(-1).100 ml leg(-1) before drink to an average of -4 +/- 4 and 0 +/- 3 nmol.ml(-1).100 ml leg(-1) during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour). The improved net balance in CHO was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.

Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion.

Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu

The purpose of this study was to determine if the acute anabolic muscle response to resistance exercise and essential amino acids (EAA) reflects the response over 24 h. Seven subjects participated in the following two 24-h studies: 1) resting (REST) and 2) rest plus resistance exercise and consumption of EAA (ES). Net balance (NB) across the leg was determined for four amino acids. [(13)C(6)]phenylalanine was infused to determine mixed muscle fractional synthetic rate (FSR). Twenty-four-hour FSR was significantly greater for ES than for REST (P = 0.003). Exchange of phenylalanine across the leg was -194 +/- 74 (SE) mg for ES and -371 +/- 88 mg for REST (P = 0.07) over 24 h and 229 +/- 42 mg (ES) and 28 +/- 15 mg (REST; P < 0.01) over 3 h corresponding to exercise and EAA consumption for ES. The difference in phenylalanine exchange between REST and ES was not different for measurements over 24 and 3 h. Increases in NB during ES were primarily the result of increases in protein synthesis. Results for other amino acids were similar. The acute anabolic response of muscle to EAA intake and exercise is additive to the response at rest and thus reflects the 24-h response.

Am J Physiol. 1999 Apr;276(4 Pt 1):E628-34.

Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids.

Tipton KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, and Departments of Surgery and Anesthesiology, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA.

We examined the response of net muscle protein synthesis to ingestion of amino acids after a bout of resistance exercise. A primed, constant infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used to measure net muscle protein balance in three male and three female volunteers on three occasions. Subjects consumed in random order 1 liter of 1) a mixed amino acid (40 g) solution (MAA), 2) an essential amino acid (40 g) solution (EAA), and 3) a placebo solution (PLA). Arterial amino acid concentrations increased approximately 150-640% above baseline during ingestion of MAA and EAA. Net muscle protein balance was significantly increased from negative during PLA ingestion (-50 +/- 23 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) to positive during MAA ingestion (17 +/- 13 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1) and EAA (29 +/- 14 nmol. min-1. 100 ml leg volume-1; P < 0.05). Because net balance was similar for MAA and EAA, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. We concluded that ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.

[choco]

oha!
pubmed gesucht hmm !?!

werds mir bei gelegenheit mal durchlesen, danke

[EvilEye]

jetzt mal ne ganz ganz dumme frage....

wodrin ist dextrose enthalten z.B.? Wenn man nicht nahrungsergänzungsmittel nimmt. in aminosäuren doch nicht oder?

[ThePump]

jetzt mal ne ganz ganz dumme frage....

wodrin ist dextrose enthalten z.B.? Wenn man nicht nahrungsergänzungsmittel nimmt. in aminosäuren doch nicht oder?

Traubensaft.

TP

[ThePump]

deswegen trink ich (...) traubensaft (...) und 1gr. vitamin c und direkt hinterher den wheyshake.

Würde mich mal interessieren, wie das die anderen halten.

1g VitC erscheint mir sehr viel, aber vielleicht ist es ja richtig so.

TP

[michaelp]

Kleiner Einwand (Hinweis)...

in den meisten Whey´s is doch schon ausreichend Zucker (Kohlenhydrat) enthalten (es sei denn es ist ein isolat)...